Curse

The Mountain · Aug 26, 2010, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

And, how does that affect you?

It affects the economy in the same way as botting does...

Stoneys Rock · Aug 26, 2010, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Mountain

It affects the economy in the same way as botting does...

In no way will it ever affect it as much as botting. For a start those 8 accounts would be mutually exclusive and would ultimately be playing together and not selling gold for real life money.

Secondly rare drops don't change if I went and farmed an entire zone something tedious whether there is 8 of you or not, the drops do not change, they do not increase at all. White drops and merchant fodder maybe but at the cost of time.

You could argue "what about chests? 8 chances to get a good item? QQ" You still got to pay for 8 keys so what is the difference. The only benefit is time your saving. The only increased form of income would be from completing missions with masters or hard mode and getting gold from that, which is the entire point of the game anyway.

Ka Tet · Aug 26, 2010, 11:01 PM // 23:01

I promised myself I would never get into a fictional economy argument again. However, I will say that the economic argument seems to be used as an excuse by people who are way too concerned about what other people have and/or are doing, i.e. busybodies, nosy neighbors and old ladies at beauty parlors.

INB4 This is why what this guy is doing has no effect on your ability to play the game:
Even if your money becomes worth less, your character has no basic needs, i.e. your toon won't die of starvation or exposure. Money in GW almost exclusively relates to bling.
These days, the amount of gold it takes to be on a level playing field with others is negligible. Buying and runing a set of 1k armor, acquiring suitably modded max weapons and buying a few skills is not that costly of an endeavor. It's likely that if you're in a guild or have friends in game, many of these things may simply be given to you, e.g. crafting mats, green weapons and tomes.

Yaksha · Aug 27, 2010, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Even if someone running 8 accounts ended up with 8x loot over all the accounts, or 8x chests for each of yours, that's not unfair.

If you paid 8 times the money, and over all 8 accounts ended up with 8x more stuff, that's entirely fair.

It's like saying someone who buys 8 lottery tickets, when everyone else chooses to buy only 1 ticket, is unfair because they have 8x the chance to win.

If you bought 1 ticket like everyone else and somehow rigged things so you had 8x the chance to win, that would be unfair.

The Mountain · Aug 27, 2010, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoneys Rock

In no way will it ever affect it as much as botting. .

I said "in the same way," not "as much as."

Here's a personal example: simply running 8 accounts through a dungeon, I used to gain 3-4 frog scepters in less than two hours each night. You think that action taken by multiple people wouldn't affect prices? By myself (actually, one other friend was doing the same thing), I kept lowering prices because I didn't have time to sell that many for full prices...and the community followed to compete with these low prices.

Beauty parlors and lotto tickets? Bad analogies are bad...

Go read the EULA (section 7, specifically) and use verbiage from the contract to defend the actions being discussed.

MArcSinus · Aug 27, 2010, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaksha

Even if someone running 8 accounts ended up with 8x loot over all the accounts, or 8x chests for each of yours, that's not unfair.

If you paid 8 times the money, and over all 8 accounts ended up with 8x more stuff, that's entirely fair.

It's like saying someone who buys 8 lottery tickets, when everyone else chooses to buy only 1 ticket, is unfair because they have 8x the chance to win.

If you bought 1 ticket like everyone else and somehow rigged things so you had 8x the chance to win, that would be unfair.

It is unfair because he get's all the loot and chests 8 times faster then he would play them one by one!

StefanCandan · Aug 27, 2010, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Mountain

Here's a personal example: simply running 8 accounts through a dungeon, I used to gain 3-4 frog scepters in less than two hours each night. You think that action taken by multiple people wouldn't affect prices? By myself (actually, one other friend was doing the same thing), I kept lowering prices because I didn't have time to sell that many for full prices...and the community followed to compete with these low prices.

Lets assume myself and 7 guildies of mine went bogroots farming for froggies.
The chance is that we have the same chance to drop 3-4 froggies in the same amount of time. Then we go sell the froggies. Everyone will be selling them at lets say, 75e each. Noone will be buying, because there are other people selling froggies at the same time. in the end, you'll have to drop your price to get a faster sale. If one of the players drop his brice by 5 ecto, everyone else will have to go along, or face a longer time spent merchanting. While the other people will have to drop along, or lower to sell theirs. in the end noone is harmed by you selling 4 froggies, compared to 4 people selling 1 froggie each. There are 4 froggies, and 4 people. it does give you alot of money, but the economy is still the same, as prices fluctate around(See the ecto, 6k, 6.5k, 6k, 7k, 7.5k, 8k, 6k, etc. etc.).

Almost everyone here is looking at the economy for theirselves, but think about the whole GW Economy, its not harmed in anyway. The chances you get 4x a good item are the same chances someone else gets 4x a good item shared among his team.

Basically the only thing that could be ruined by multi-boxing is the PvP side of GW. Imagine having 16 accounts, setting up 2 guilds and gvging eachother just to get your rating up. Imagine synching RA with 8 accounts, just so you get to fight yourself, and get your title up, and get balthasar faction. Imagine entering a GvG Tourney, just so you have multiple chances of winning that price, and even a chance to have s afe spot, as chances are that you'll have to be facing yourself.

In no way multi-boxing will ruin the economy.

The Mountain · Aug 27, 2010, 03:56 PM // 15:56

You forget that when I run 8 accounts through, my guildies (your example) will still be farming elsewhere in the game, producing more loot to add to the economy. I drop prices more when accumulating additional wealth with several clients because of the burden of selling multiple items each day.

Yaksha · Aug 28, 2010, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Here's a personal example: simply running 8 accounts through a dungeon, I used to gain 3-4 frog scepters in less than two hours each night. You think that action taken by multiple people wouldn't affect prices? By myself (actually, one other friend was doing the same thing), I kept lowering prices because I didn't have time to sell that many for full prices...and the community followed to compete with these low prices.

You paid 8 times the money for 8 accounts, why is it unfair that you get more 'stuff' than someone who paid only once?

Quote:

Beauty parlors and lotto tickets? Bad analogies are bad...

No they're not, it's the exact same idea.

People seem to think that in a game like Guild Wars, things are supposed to be *fair*. Everyone should be treated equally, etc.

You forget Guild Wars is a commercial product. The company can say - one account per person. That's not hard to enforce (e.g. many online games, like free browser games, mandate this).

However in MMOs, there is no such restriction. People are free to spend as much money as they want, to purchase as many accounts (and therefore reap the benefits of them) as they want.

Quote:

Go read the EULA (section 7, specifically) and use verbiage from the contract to defend the actions being discussed.

The EULA says nothing against advantage gained due to owning more than one account.

The EULA could be interpreted to be against advantage gained due to using things such as keycloners and macros, however based on past things said by anet staff members, I am under the belief that they do not mind those things being used.

Quote:

It is unfair because he get's all the loot and chests 8 times faster then he would play them one by one!

And he paid 8x for that right.

Quote:

You forget that when I run 8 accounts through, my guildies (your example) will still be farming elsewhere in the game, producing more loot to add to the economy. I drop prices more when accumulating additional wealth with several clients because of the burden of selling multiple items each day.

Your comparison is completely flawed. We are not talking about players, we are talking about accounts.

In StefanCandan's example, he talked about himself and 7 guildies. That is a total of 8 accounts, generating a certain amount of in-game wealth.

In your example, if you run 8 accounts and your guildies are farming elsewhere. That is a total of 8 + 7 = 15 accounts.

I'm not sure what is so insightful about making a comparison between 8 accounts and 15 accounts.

From the company's point of view:
- Selling one copy of guild wars, and seeing that account get very very rich (let's say, about 8x as rich as the average active player)
- Selling 8 copies of guild wars, and seeing each account get to a pretty average level of rich-ness
Are two very different things. It doesn't matter if the 8 copies sold were to different people or to a group of friends or to the same human player.

MArcSinus · Aug 28, 2010, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaksha

You paid 8 times the money for 8 accounts, why is it unfair that you get more 'stuff' than someone who paid only once?

No they're not, it's the exact same idea.

People seem to think that in a game like Guild Wars, things are supposed to be *fair*. Everyone should be treated equally, etc.

You forget Guild Wars is a commercial product. The company can say - one account per person. That's not hard to enforce (e.g. many online games, like free browser games, mandate this).

However in MMOs, there is no such restriction. People are free to spend as much money as they want, to purchase as many accounts (and therefore reap the benefits of them) as they want.

The EULA says nothing against advantage gained due to owning more than one account.

The EULA could be interpreted to be against advantage gained due to using things such as keycloners and macros, however based on past things said by anet staff members, I am under the belief that they do not mind those things being used.

And he paid 8x for that right.

Your comparison is completely flawed. We are not talking about players, we are talking about accounts.

In StefanCandan's example, he talked about himself and 7 guildies. That is a total of 8 accounts, generating a certain amount of in-game wealth.

In your example, if you run 8 accounts and your guildies are farming elsewhere. That is a total of 8 + 7 = 15 accounts.

I'm not sure what is so insightful about making a comparison between 8 accounts and 15 accounts.

From the company's point of view:
- Selling one copy of guild wars, and seeing that account get very very rich (let's say, about 8x as rich as the average active player)
- Selling 8 copies of guild wars, and seeing each account get to a pretty average level of rich-ness
Are two very different things. It doesn't matter if the 8 copies sold were to different people or to a group of friends or to the same human player.

OBJECTION!

Your logic has some mayor flaws.

1. First of all you assume that multboxing isn't against the EULA.

However, as you already said yourself, the EULA is pretty vague. It doesn't have specific statements about multiboxing. A lot of games have specific statements about this case. Anet doesn't, so your assumption only rests on your interpretation of the rules.
You also said that you are basing your opionion on statements from Anet staff members? I would like to see a link or quote please. Also mind the difference between "It's illegal but we don't care." and "It's legal go ahead." Either could be the case.

2. You are constantly justifying multiboxing by saying that he or she payed for all the accounts. This is also a false argument, since you like comparisons so much, let's say that I buy multiple cars, the law still doesn't let me drive multiple cars at the same time. Simply saying "You've paid for it" doesn't make something legal or illegal.

3. Let's make an important difference here between accounts and persons. It's not 1 account which get 8 times richer and 7 who don't, but it is in fact 1 person who gets 8 times richer. And that is basically the problem in a nutshell. Putting the farming process of the person in a timeframe, one can easily see he or she get's richer at a much faster rate then someone just playing regularly. Which saves him or she a lot of time in which he or she can do something else, or even farm more to get even richer!
Now it's not hard to see that the curve of this gold versus time graph isn't a linear one, as described in all examples, but in fact an exponential one!

Chrisworld · Aug 28, 2010, 02:57 PM // 14:57

The difference between multiboxing and having a few friends over your house playing on their accounts? I muliboxed for a while and nothing foul came of it. You guys need to relax and stop the ridiculous comparisons. Play the damn game and stop analyzing what this can do and what that can do. When you realize you've wasted so much energy and time trying to justify who's right and wrong gw2 will already be an old game and what was all this fighting for anyway?

Meridon · Aug 28, 2010, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by MArcSinus

OBJECTION!
2. You are constantly justifying multiboxing by saying that he or she payed for all the accounts. This is also a false argument, since you like comparisons so much, let's say that I buy multiple cars, the law still doesn't let me drive multiple cars at the same time. Simply saying "You've paid for it" doesn't make something legal or illegal.]

OBJECTION!

I Demand a quote from Burgelijk Wetkboek boek 8! Your assumptions are false!

On topic, I don't think playing multiple accounts at the same time is cheating. Also, banning it would bring up severe issues with families playing from the same wireless IP. As long as the process isn't severely automated, it should be allowed.

A script that makes 7 other accounts copy the actions of the first account is botting in my book though, as it makes the accounts itself play fully automated, even though there is technically someone at the PC playing the game.

Targren · Aug 30, 2010, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

A script that makes 7 other accounts copy the actions of the first account is botting in my book though, as it makes the accounts itself play fully automated, even though there is technically someone at the PC playing the game.

Wait, what?

Without taking a side in the argument either way, I can't tell what your reasoning here is. You basically just said "it makes play fully automated, even though it's technically not fully automated."

Meridon · Aug 30, 2010, 06:35 PM // 18:35

I'm sorry, I should've clarified.

I was reasoning from this situation:

One person, playing Guild Wars, controlling 8 accounts grouped in one party at the same time. However, he or she doesn't control all 8 players manually, instead he controls one account manually, and lets all the other accounts copy the commands entered on account number one.

It means that technically there is someone at the PC playing. Yet, 7 out of 8 accounts are not being controlled manually, they are actually running on a script that controls them, by copying the first account. I think this is worth being classed as botting.

The reason I stated it this way, is because Anet always drew the line in botting like this:
-a user controlling an account manually (with the use of a few macros or not) = not botting = legal.
-a character playing the game by itself (with for example the user going AFK) = botting = illegal.

By my definition and situation, the aforementioned seven accounts are botting and therefore illegal. The first account however, technically isn't (even though Anet would probably still ban in a case like this).

Targren · Aug 30, 2010, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

I'm sorry, I should've clarified.

I was reasoning from this situation:

One person, playing Guild Wars, controlling 8 accounts grouped in one party at the same time. However, he or she doesn't control all 8 players manually, instead he controls one account manually, and lets all the other accounts copy the commands entered on account number one.

It means that technically there is someone at the PC playing. Yet, 7 out of 8 accounts are not being controlled manually, they are actually running on a script that controls them, by copying the first account. I think this is worth being classed as botting.

The reason I stated it this way, is because Anet always drew the line in botting like this:
-a user controlling an account manually (with the use of a few macros or not) = not botting = legal.
-a character playing the game by itself (with for example the user going AFK) = botting = illegal.

By my definition and situation, the aforementioned seven accounts are botting and therefore illegal. The first account however, technically isn't (even though Anet would probably still ban in a case like this).

I can't help but think you're misunderstanding what's going on, then. There's no "script" involved (in games like WoW, there are, but GW has no in-game scripting. One of its big flaws, I feel). Pressing a key on the "master" is the same as pressing a key on the "slaves". None of the accounts, master nor slave, do anything if the user doesn't press any keys (goes AFK).

So how is it botting?

Meridon · Aug 30, 2010, 08:29 PM // 20:29

OP Suggests that in his example. pressing a key on a 'master' account, directly results in the same action being executed on a 'slave' account. This means that all behaviour on the 'slave' accounts is not directly generated by a user, but actually by a user-made script, that automatically copies and re-enacts any behaviour from the 'master' account.

The core question is, does this cross the line of legal (human play) to illegal (botting)?

My answer to that question is yes, because without a script the user wouldn't be able to control his 'slave' accounts like that at the same time, by the use of only one keyboard. This means that 7 out of 8 'slave' accounts in OP's FOW-example completely rely on automated commands to function properly. This is a significant difference from key macros, as key macros only enchance direct human input on one account. OP's example however, is botting in my opinion, because the 'slave' accounts are no more simply a result of enhanced human input, they are in fact fully automated, as long as the user plays on his 'master' account.

As you can see I'm drawing the line at where direct interaction between a human and an account disappears (because in his example, the slave accounts, as a whole, are not directly controlled by a human but by a script). But hey, that's just me. In the end, Anet makes the call.

Ka Tet · Aug 30, 2010, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

Living in denial and suppressing rage.

What you're talking about is the same software that allows your keyboard to function with one computer, it just sends it to additional targets.
Would you feel better about all of this if he manually spliced the keyboard wires, because that is what it seems like you're hinting at?

Light And Peace · Aug 30, 2010, 10:28 PM // 22:28

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/EVE...ing,10166.html

Quote:

Kromtor was originally kicked off EVE Online for software multiboxing: the act of sending a keyboard or mouse click to multiple computers
or clients at the same time using software such as Synergy, Keyclone, and more. CCP banned him from the MMORPG for three days, citing "macro use."

To get around the multiboxing software
restriction, Kromtor has now created his current setup. The system consists of four wooden dowels draped across six keypads--each dowel has six screws that come into contact with the same keys on each pad. Also in the mix are six mice connected together with packing tape and skewers.

Here's an example from another gaming mmo.

Since multi launch, isn't illegal, I think it's okay to have more than once instance of GW running on a computer, but it's _NOT_ okay to have any third party program that automates the play of the other character. I think if you are going between windows and clicking and doing commands it's one thing, but it's another to have a program that copies and sends it to another box for you.

In regards to people who pay to have 8 accounts running, I don't think that's a big deal since because it's still 8 accounts that were purchases and those 8 accounts technically have to be worked on also. Granted, you could pool all the loot into one account, but to get all 8 accounts blinged up, it's going to take some time. Remember all the accounts need skills/spells, equipment to assist with the farming.

I don't think a person can control 8 accounts without the aid of an illegal 3rd party program. I can see 2 accounts or even 3, but that's about it.

Meridon · Aug 31, 2010, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

What you're talking about is the same software that allows your keyboard to function with one computer, it just sends it to additional targets.
Would you feel better about all of this if he manually spliced the keyboard wires, because that is what it seems like you're hinting at?

Lol what?

I'm just stating my opinion with arguments. Calling me 'living in denial and suppressed rage' doesn't exactly make me take you seriously. Neither does it sound too friendly, isn't that right Rahja?

It sounds like I offended you by calling you a cheat without realizing. Nevertheless, if this is what you do (copying keystrokes to several instances of the game to run additional accounts without direct human input), then I stand by my point that I think what you are doing is wrong. The only in my opinion legal way to control multiple accounts at the same time (with the exception of manually switching windows all the time, effectively leaving the rest of your accounts afk for a brief period) is having multiple boxes running side by side, with multiple keyboards stacked up, which is of course completely unpractical.